This conversation features California Governor Gavin Newsom interviewing Congressman Jim Clyburn, the House Majority Whip and a towering figure in American civil rights history. Clyburn, who has served South Carolina's 6th district since 1993, was a contemporary of John Lewis, Jesse Jackson, and Martin Luther King Jr. during the 1960s civil rights movement.

The interview takes place on the same day as Jesse Jackson's passing, prompting reflections on their shared history from high school football rivals to lifelong allies. Clyburn discusses his memoir Blessed Experiences Genuinely Southern, Proudly Black, which connects his personal journey from 1960s student activist to congressional leader with the broader arc of American democracy.

The conversation spans from Reconstruction's end in 1877 to contemporary voting rights battles, with Clyburn drawing explicit parallels between the "Red Shirts" of the post-Reconstruction era and today's political movements. He argues we may be witnessing the end of a "second Reconstruction" period that began in the 1960s.

From High School Rivals to Civil Rights Allies

Clyburn and Jesse Jackson were high school football rivals - Jackson at Sterling High in Greenville, Clyburn at Mather Academy in Camden - before becoming lifelong civil rights partners.

"Jesse was an exceptional athlete, a great quarterback who lettered in football, baseball, and basketball" - Clyburn, describing Jackson's athletic prowess before his activism career.

Clyburn met his wife Emily in jail during a March 15, 1960 sit-in protest when she brought him food and broke a hamburger in half to share.

At age 12, Clyburn led the NAACP youth council, following his father's belief in the "age of responsibility" based on Jesus assuming responsibility at twelve.

The Phone Call That Changed History

John F. Kennedy's phone call to Coretta Scott King in October 1960, three weeks before the election, "absolutely changed that election" according to Clyburn.

"Going into that election, Richard Nixon was getting 40% of the black vote. Even afterwards, 28% of that vote still went to Richard Nixon."

The call came after King was jailed in Georgia following a meeting between civil rights leaders and King, where young activists challenged his leadership on civil disobedience.

Kennedy made the call "against all kinds of advice" from his campaign team who warned him not to do it.

Reconstruction's End and Today's Parallels

Blessed Experiences argues that Reconstruction ended by a single vote: an 8-7 commission decision that gave Rutherford B. Hayes the presidency in 1876.

"Hayes told them give me these votes and I'll bring an end to Reconstruction. One month after he was sworn in, he removed all the troops from the South and allowed Jim Crow to become the law of the land."

Clyburn sees parallels between the "Red Shirts" of post-Reconstruction and today's "red hats," warning that the "second Reconstruction" that began in the 1960s could also end.

"The first reconstruction came to an end, why not the second reconstruction come to an end? And that's what I think is underway."

The 10-20-30 Formula for Economic Justice

Clyburn's 10-20-30 formula directs 10% of federal appropriations to counties where 20% or more of the population has lived in poverty for 30+ years.

"Two-thirds of the counties that fall into this category are represented by Republicans, and they ain't black - in Kentucky they're going to be white, in Alaska Native Americans, in New Mexico Hispanic."

The formula appears in 17 different appropriations accounts, including the $65 billion broadband bill officially titled "Making Broadband Accessible and Affordable."

Clyburn's daughter at the FCC revealed how census tract classification masked rural broadband gaps: "When the big house gets connected, all the little houses around it ain't got no connection."

Voting Rights and Modern Jim Crow

The recently passed SAVE Act accepts hunting licenses as valid voter ID but rejects student activity cards, revealing the discriminatory intent behind voter ID laws.

"I have never voted when I did not ID myself because the moment I present my registration card, that is my ID. So now you're saying that's not good enough."

The SAVE Act requires birth certificates or passports for registration, though "two-thirds of African Americans don't even have passports" and many lack access to birth certificates.

South Carolina, despite being 60% African American during Reconstruction, was gerrymandered into seven congressional districts with only one majority-Black district - the same configuration that exists today.

John Lewis's Final Warning

In their last conversation, John Lewis warned Clyburn that "defund the police is going to do to our party what 'Burn Baby Burn' did to our movement."

"John asked me to" speak out against defund the police messaging, leading to Clyburn's public opposition to the slogan.

Lewis and Clyburn, both 19-year-old college students, met at the founding of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) in 1960.

"John never had a real defined place to sit on the House floor. There was nothing unusual for him to sit down with somebody on the other side of the aisle."