In this episode of Interesting Times, host Ross Douthat sits down with Louise Perry, a Wall Street Journal columnist and prominent author, to discuss her landmark book The Case Against the Sexual Revolution and the growing cultural alienation between men and women. They trace the history of sexual liberation, starting with the technological shock of the birth control pill and the subsequent economic shifts analyzed in The Two-Income Trap Why Middle-Class Parents Are Going Broke. Perry explains the intellectual roots of her philosophy, drawing contrasts with radical feminist works like Andrea Dworkin's Pornography Men Possessing Women and aligning with Mary Harrington's Feminism Against Progress. The conversation covers the rise of online subcultures like 'tradwives' and the 'manosphere,' the political divergence of young men and women, and the challenges of modern dating. Perry advocates for a return to sexual restraint, arguing that acknowledging biological differences is essential for stable relationships.

The Material and Ideological Shock of the Pill

Louise Perry defines the sexual revolution as both an ideological and material revolution driven by the technological shock of the birth control pill.

"The distinctive thing about the pill compared with other contraception is that women can control it themselves and it's invisible." - Louise

In The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, Perry argues that while she is a beneficiary of these changes, the resulting culture of casual sex disproportionately favors male sexual drives while offloading physical and psychological costs onto women.

Approximately half of all pregnancies in both the United States and Great Britain remain unplanned, demonstrating that contraception has not fully eliminated the physical risks of sex for women.

Economic Fragility and the Two-Income Trap

The mass entry of women into the labor market was driven more by macroeconomic shifts and labor-saving household technologies than pure ideology.

As detailed in The Two-Income Trap Why Middle-Class Parents Are Going Broke, the shift to dual-income households created a fragile domestic economy where families must compete on two paychecks to afford housing.

"If the assumption is that you have two paychecks... then families with a single income are at a disadvantage." - Louise

The Feminist Sex Wars and the Rise of Pornography

The "sex wars" of the 1970s and 1980s pitted radical feminists against individualistic, sex-positive feminists who ultimately won the cultural debate by the 1990s.

Radical critiques like Andrea Dworkin's Pornography Men Possessing Women were highly prescient about how internet pornography would shape male sexual expectations and desire.

"Consent workshops are no match for pornography. Just think of the hundreds of hours that a typical teenage boy might be exposed to pornography compared with 30 minutes of a consent workshop." - Louise

Reactionary Feminism and Biological Realism

Reactionary feminism, a term closely associated with Mary Harrington's Feminism Against Progress, starts from the premise of crucial, immutable biological differences between the sexes.

Perry argues that youthful male energy and high-risk tolerance are biological realities that societies must channel productively rather than pretend do not exist.

"I don't think that the... solution that has been toyed with in our own era of just pretending that men and women are the same psychologically or physically is productive at all." - Louise

Digital Mimesis and the Polarization of the Sexes

The internet damages relations between the sexes by publicizing private, homosocial conversations that were historically kept behind closed doors.

Young women are highly mimetic, which has turbocharged their rapid political radicalization and leftward shift online relative to young men.

While the "manosphere" is often feared for potential violence, Perry argues it is more likely to encourage young men to become "lonely and sad."

The Tradwife Phenomenon and Modern Escapism

The "tradwife" subculture represents an online-generated reaction to the genuine physical and psychological burdens of modern female life, such as childbirth and care work.

"I think that tradwives are angry and sad for the same reasons that progressive feminists are angry and sad, but they have a different set of solutions which they think will solve it." - Louise

Extreme subcultures like "freebirthing" emerge from a misguided belief that modern medical institutions, rather than biology itself, are the source of pain in childbirth.

A Gradualist Path Toward Sexual Restraint

Perry advocates for a culture of greater sexual restraint where individuals treat sex with the gravity of potential parenthood.

"If you would not have sex with this man if you weren't using contraception, then you should not have sex with him at all." - Louise

While a societal-wide return to strict historical norms is unrealistic, individuals with sufficient agency can choose to adopt soft traditional norms to build stable, equal marriages.