In this role-reversal episode, Kip Sorensen interviews Ryan Mickler, founder of the Order of Man podcast and Iron Council movement. Mickler shares the origin story of his 11-year journey building one of the leading men's development platforms, which now spans over 1,650 episodes.

The conversation explores Mickler's transition from financial planning to men's leadership, his commitment to two-year experimentation cycles, and the early validation when his first Order of Man episode outperformed his entire previous podcast. They discuss the evolution from a personal need to a movement serving thousands of men.

Mickler addresses misconceptions about masculinity movements, the dangers of red pill ideology, and his approach to dealing with pressure and public scrutiny. The discussion covers his philosophy on healthy comparison, the intangible aspects of masculine leadership, and why men should focus on their sphere of control rather than external political drama.

From Financial Planning to Men's Movement

Mickler started Order of Man after feeling unease with his successful financial planning practice, remembering the moment he looked at a client call and thought 'I just didn't want to rebalance their portfolio'

He committed to two full years before evaluating the podcast's future, telling friend Everet Gonzalez 'I'm not going to make a decision about what to do with this until at least two years'

The first Order of Man episode had more downloads than his entire Wealth Anatomy podcast library, providing immediate market validation

Iron Council began when 12 guys paid $100 for 12 weeks after asking 'do you have any sort of program or course?' - Mickler admits 'I didn't even know totally what I was going to put together'

The Power of Commitment Over Passion

Mickler compares building a business to cooking moose meat low and slow: 'You committed to having it in there for eight hours. Let the process work'

Most successful men he's interviewed created something from 'personal necessity or personal experience' rather than waiting for divine calling

Men quit because 'it is hard or it is uncomfortable or it is scary' rather than letting proven processes play out over time

His approach: 'I move a little slower sometimes before I make a commitment, but when I do, I'm in. I'm all the way in'

Healthy Comparison and Male Relationships

Mickler advocates for healthy comparison: 'If I see the way that you lead your family and I feel that the way I lead my family is inadequate, and I use that comparison to change the way I serve my family, then can't we make the case that was healthy?'

Men need three relationship tiers: peers for accountability, mentors for guidance when 'not getting the results,' and mentees to develop leadership skills

The comparison trap becomes dangerous when it creates identity conflict without inspiring action toward improvement

Navigating Divorce and Public Scrutiny

During his divorce and alcohol struggles, Mickler questioned whether he was qualified to lead: 'maybe I'm not the guy to lead this. I'm struggling in my own personal life, and I'm trying to give guys tools'

He concluded his failures made him more qualified: 'maybe I'm more qualified because now I have a level of empathy and understanding for men dealing with divorce, for men dealing with substance abuse'

On marriage advice after divorce: 'When I give marriage advice, it's hey, here's what I was doing and it worked. Here's what I did that didn't work. Here's what I would do if I were to do it over again'

The Intangible Side of Masculine Leadership

Beyond physical protection, men should ask: 'are you creating a safe environment for your wife to communicate effectively with you? Are you protecting the sanctity of your relationship?'

Presiding means asking good questions rather than being directive: 'instead of directing my children, it's sometimes just asking really good, thoughtful questions so they can come to their own conclusion'

Leadership development requires 'decentralize command, let people make decisions, let them be involved' rather than maintaining authoritarian control

The difference between tactical wins and strategic objectives: getting a clean room through authority versus teaching responsibility for long-term development

Focus on Your Sphere of Control

Men waste energy on uncontrollable factors: 'We are constantly wrestling for control of scenarios that are beyond our grasp' like following every political development

Mickler's coaching example: instead of criticizing from sidelines, he asked to help coach his son's lacrosse team - 'I can influence that. I can't go coach the president'

Men focus on external issues because 'they know they can't do anything about it, and so it's safe' - avoiding the identity conflict of examining their own performance

The challenge: 'What if you were as agitated about the public school system in your local area as you are about what's happening in Iran?'

Building Brotherhood and Asking for Help

Mickler's call to action: 'build brotherhoods, build and participate in brotherhoods' through challenging environments like jiu-jitsu, running groups, or hiking

Life's difficulty compounds when faced alone: 'Life's tough, but you know when it's really tough? When you feel alone in it'

Men must learn to ask for help: Pete Roberts from Origin called saying 'I need your help with something' - Mickler was surprised because 'you've never asked for anything'

Asking for help is actually giving a gift: 'When I ask for a favor from somebody, I'm giving them the gift of being able to serve me and be valuable'

Resources Mentioned

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