Ross Douthat interviews Francisco Segovia, executive director of COPAL (Communities Organizing Power and Action for Latinos), a Minneapolis nonprofit training activists to document ICE operations. Segovia, originally from El Salvador, fled civil war in 1990 and became a US citizen in 1998.

The conversation explores COPAL's constitutional observer training program, which teaches people to document immigration enforcement while maintaining safe distances from agents. Segovia describes the current climate in Minneapolis, where ICE operations trigger immediate community mobilization with hundreds of protesters appearing within minutes.

They discuss the risks of documentation activism, including the fatal shooting of Renee Goode during an ICE operation, and debate the balance between immigration enforcement and community safety. Segovia advocates for understanding US foreign policy's role in creating migration while acknowledging some limits on immigration may be reasonable.

Current ICE Operations and Community Response in Minneapolis

Segovia describes Minneapolis as feeling like 'being in the middle of a civil war' with ICE agents driving throughout the city and people running to alert businesses to close doors

Community mobilization happens rapidly: 'in just a matter of minutes, you can see 30, 50, 100 people coming to witness and chant' when ICE operations begin

COPAL operates a helpline where citizens report ICE presence, then activates trained constitutional observers to document operations

Constitutional Observer Training and Safety Protocols

The 90-minute training covers documentation techniques, legal rights, and safety: 'keep eight feet away from the agent and keep yourself safe'

Observers receive whistles, vests, and booklets, with instructions to 'observe, not to obstruct' and avoid pointing cameras at arrestees' faces

Documentation gets submitted to COPAL's network, then shared with ACLU and family lawyers without editing to maintain 'factual information'

Training emphasizes avoiding vehicle-based protests after recent incidents: 'don't make sure that the person is not behind a vehicle'

Segovia's Immigration Story and Organizational Background

Segovia fled El Salvador's civil war in 1989 as a teacher, crossing the US border with his pregnant wife 'where there was no fence'

He obtained legal status by returning to El Salvador for proper visa processing, becoming a US citizen in 1998

COPAL, founded in 2018, operates worker centers and fights wage theft while supporting families across Minnesota through its helpline

Risks and Tactical Debates Around ICE Documentation

The Renee Goode shooting highlights dangers: Segovia maintains 'no one should kill another person' while acknowledging protesters face armed agents

Training now emphasizes avoiding confrontational positioning after incidents where 'someone is in a place like behind an ICE car'

Segovia acknowledges limited influence over protesters' actions: 'we have a lot of emotions' and 'consequences can be greater' if mistakes are made

Immigration Policy and Enforcement Philosophy

Segovia argues current ICE tactics create 'a whole show' with masked agents that's 'dehumanizing' compared to traditional enforcement

He links migration to US foreign policy: 'the United States participated in creating more chaos in Venezuela' leading to asylum seekers

On deportations, Segovia supports removing serious criminals but questions lesser offenses: 'define crime within the theme of what is a criminal offense that deserves deportation'

He advocates for legal worker visa programs: 'you cannot have the labor without the person' - people want services but 'don't want to see the labor that produces that'

Resources Mentioned

In All Things Moderation

ing two U.S. citizens. I think it's actually just to pause there, because I think it's a good case study in how in some of this stuff, you can find video online of the beginning of that arrest. And

The Bad Guys in One Last Thing (The Bad Guys #20)

stuff, you can find video online of the beginning of that arrest. And those, it's actually a case study in one of the guys, the U.S. citizens, is filming an ICE agent as they enter Target. I'm not s