Joe Rogan speaks with Brian Siegel, founder of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo Law School and former Innocence Project attorney, about wrongful convictions, clemency work, and systemic failures in the justice system.

The conversation begins with Siegel reflecting on how his work reveals increasingly bizarre patterns of corruption and wrongful prosecution, ranging from cases where law enforcement deliberately frames suspects to situations where detectives simply refuse to admit mistakes.

Siegel discusses his recent $50 million defamation trial victory for Ike and Laurie Perlmutter, whose DNA was stolen at a deposition by a Canadian neighbor trying to implicate them in a hate mail campaign, highlighting vulnerabilities in forensic science.

The discussion moves through multiple wrongful conviction cases, including Nelson Cruz's 26-year imprisonment despite police witnessing the actual shooter, and explores the psychological inability of institutions to admit fault, referencing Malcolm Gladwell's new book on corporate apologies.

Later topics include the history of marijuana criminalization as an industrial conspiracy by William Randolph Hearst, debates about drug legalization and harm reduction, psychedelic therapy including EMDR and holotropic breathing, and the upcoming Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua boxing match.

The Institutional Inability to Admit Fault

Malcolm Gladwell's new book Revenge or the Tipping Point examines how opioid company executives testified before Congress unable to apologize or admit wrongdoing, a phenomenon Siegel sees transcending the legal system

"I'm starting to think that this inability to admit fault that you're wrong, that you're sorry, it transcends the legal system" - Siegel observes this pattern across institutions from pharmaceutical companies to law enforcement

Siegel distinguishes between cases where cops deliberately frame people versus cases where detectives develop a hunch and manipulate evidence to reach their predetermined conclusion, finding the latter more common

"Can't you just say I'm sorry? That's all I want" - Siegel references Sebastian Maniscalco bit about his wife, noting the power of simple apologies that most institutions refuse to give

Perlmutter DNA Theft Case: $50 Million Verdict

Ike Perlmutter, former Marvel chairman, and his wife Lori had their DNA stolen at a 2010 deposition by Canadian neighbor Harold Rosenberg over a tennis center dispute in their Palm Beach community

Rosenberg hired a former crime scene analyst and retired Toronto deputy police chief to orchestrate DNA collection, treating the deposition like a crime scene with planned evidence handling

They ensured only Ike touched specific paper exhibits and only Lori touched a water bottle

Materials were sent to an unaccredited lab that claimed Lori's DNA matched hate mail

The unaccredited lab analyst accidentally contaminated the positive control with Lori's DNA by pipetting from her sample, but issued results anyway despite knowing the error

"If no criminal history, diversion, if limited criminal history, withhold costs, if extensive criminal history, end or Hispanic. Adjudicated guilty" - memo from prosecutor Jack Campbell's office that led to DOJ investigation

In 2017, a former business associate of Rosenberg was arrested in Canada with hate mail samples and latex gloves, clearly establishing him as the actual perpetrator

The jury awarded $50 million in damages for defamation and abuse of process after Rosenberg published articles in the New York Times and Globe and Mail claiming Lori's DNA was on hate mail

The case established important precedent for forensic science integrity: "DNA is supposed to be the holy grail" but private citizens collecting evidence without proper protocols can have error rates skyrocket by 50% or more

The Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo Law was born from Ike and Lori's experience, funded for the first 10 years to help the wrongfully accused

Nelson Cruz: 26 Years for Murder He Didn't Commit

Officer witnessed Eduardo Rodriguez with smoking gun immediately after shooting Trevor Vere in 1998 Brooklyn, literally seeing the muzzle flash and catching him with weapon in hand

"He exits the patrol car, draws on the man, and says, drop the gun. The guy's pointing the gun still that was used to shoot Trevor Vieira" - officer testimony describing the arrest

Rodriguez was delivered to detectives Louis Garcella and Schimmel/Chimmel, who have had 21 cases vacated for framing people for murders they didn't commit

Hours later, Rodriguez claimed 17-year-old Nelson Cruz did the shooting and he just picked up the dropped gun, despite officer never seeing anyone else or any gun being dropped

Andre Bellinger appeared at precinct claiming to witness Cruz do it, but was told what gun was used, told Cruz was the suspect, then picked Cruz from lineup after being told he'd be in it

"All three of those things are gross violations of investigatory practices, and this has been established for decades" - Siegel

Eyewitnesses later testified Bellinger was blocks away with them, not at the murder scene

At trial, Rodriguez mysteriously couldn't be located to testify, only Bellinger testified, and Cruz was convicted in a three-day trial

In 2019-2020 post-conviction hearing, judge acting erratically denied exoneration despite 20+ witnesses exposing Bellinger as liar; judge later resigned due to advanced Alzheimer's disease

Cruz has served 26 years and continues fighting for exoneration through Brooklyn's Conviction Integrity Unit led by DA Eric Gonzalez

Albanian Veteran Facing Deportation After 51 Years

Albanian immigrant came to US in early 1970s, became accomplished boxer in prison, joined union, paid taxes and Social Security for 51 years, raised five children and eight grandchildren

In early 1970s at age 20s, gas station attendant refused to return his $100 bill after not having change for $5 gas, leading to confrontation

Client's brother went to resolve dispute, was shot in stomach by attendant, client entered and shot attendant once while he still held gun, brother survived

First trial resulted in hung jury favoring acquittal, second trial convicted him, judge sentenced to only 4-7 years recognizing circumstances, served under four years

"Many states have stand-your-ground laws. I think under different circumstances, he doesn't even get charged" - Siegel on how self-defense laws have evolved

After traveling to Albania to see family, ICE started removal proceedings despite 51 years without even a traffic ticket

"He's exactly who we would want in this country. A guy that comes here, contributes to this society for 51 years and built a family" - Siegel advocating for pardon

Siegel working to get him pardoned before February deportation date, as pardon would eliminate basis for removal

Michael Giles: Air Force Veteran Denied Clemency

Air Force serviceman from Tampa took weekend leave to Tallahassee's FAMU, never been there before, had licensed firearm after getting carry permit at police station

Massive fight broke out in club instigated by one man, Courtney Thrower, whose friends testified they were "afraid he was going to attack someone" and he was "acting crazy"

"Question: Mr. Thrower, is it your testimony that you ran with your entire body to strike this person? Answer: yes. Question: Was it your intention to knock him out? Answer: yes, it was" - trial testimony

"Question: had this person actually done anything to you at any time whatsoever? Answer: physically, directly, no. Question: Was it your intent to hurt? Answer: yes, that's normally what you do when you punch someone"

Giles shot Thrower in leg while on ground during melee, bullet fragments hit two others, sentenced to 25-year mandatory minimum under Florida law

After 15 years with zero disciplinary tickets in prison, Governor DeSantis initially agreed to clemency, family traveled to Tallahassee for release, then governor changed mind at last second

Siegel completed exhaustive requirements including contacting Georgia governor for interstate compact, supervised release plan, support from John Ashcroft and Mike Mukasey, positive recommendation from Florida Commission of Offender Review

"A week before I was told we're going to grant him relief, they actually had me speaking to the prison to transport him up to the clemency hearing. We were down to whether he would be able to change into a suit"

Prosecutor Jack Campbell who prosecuted Giles had DOJ investigation over memo stating "if extensive criminal history and or Hispanic" as sentencing criteria, entered agreement for racial sensitivity training

"That is brutal. It's evil, in my opinion. And it's precisely why this guy is not very popular" - Siegel on DeSantis's last-second reversal

Larry Hoover: 50 Years and Three Heart Attacks

Larry Hoover, 75-year-old former Gangster Disciples leader from Chicago, spent over 50 years in prison including decades in Colorado Supermax on 23-hour lockdown

Trump commuted Hoover's federal sentence for continuing criminal enterprise (CCE) conspiracy, but he was immediately transferred to Illinois state custody

Hoover is one of only 35 people still incarcerated under Illinois's pre-1978 indeterminate sentencing system with 200-year sentence

"Andrew Howard, the guy who killed him, was paroled more than 30 years ago" - the actual triggerman has been free for decades while Hoover remains imprisoned

Since transfer to state custody, Hoover has suffered three heart attacks and has renounced gang life and all affiliations

"What basis do we have to remove a grandfather who's lived here for 50 years and contributed to this society?" - Siegel questioning continued incarceration

James Prince and others have supported Hoover's case for over a decade, with proposed release terms including strictest supervision

Spencer Bowens and Old Drug War Sentences

Spencer Bowens, childhood friend of Mike Tyson, has been in prison for more than three decades under outdated drug laws that have since been abolished

"He would have been out if these nutty drug laws didn't exist and if they applied retroactively since they have been abolished" - Siegel on sentencing disparities

Crack cocaine sentencing was dramatically harsher than powder cocaine despite crack being lighter, reflecting racial disparities in drug prosecution

Emory Jones, another childhood friend of Jay-Z with full support from Jay-Z's foundation and Rock Nation, spent decades in prison for drug crime

Jones has been released and "checked every box" as mentor and pillar of community, but remains under weight of old conviction affecting job opportunities

Siegel mentors college students with Jay-Z's mom through foundation, paying for their last year of college

Marijuana Criminalization: Industrial Conspiracy

William Randolph Hearst owned paper mills and forests, saw hemp as existential threat when decorticator machine made hemp fiber processing efficient in 1930s

Popular Science magazine featured "Hemp: The New Billion Dollar Crop" on front page, highlighting hemp's superior properties for paper, canvas, and textiles

Hemp fiber is "hard like oak but light like styrofoam," makes superior paper, and produces four times as much usable material per acre annually versus 20-30 year forest growth cycles

"Marijuana was not a name for cannabis. Marijuana was a name for a Mexican slang for wild tobacco" - Hearst tagged hemp with this name to demonize it

Hearst sponsored Reefer Madness propaganda films in 1930s, printing stories about "blacks and Mexicans raping white women" to create hysteria

Harry Anslinger partnered with Hearst, redirecting prohibition enforcement officers to target marijuana after alcohol prohibition ended

Nylon rope manufacturers also lobbied against hemp since hemp was traditionally used for superior ropes

"Self-interest plus profit incentive, add a dose of hysteria, and you have prehistoric lobbying that leads to the demonization" - Siegel on 90 years of marijuana prohibition

Trump rescheduled marijuana to Schedule III, same category as Tylenol with codeine, though Rogan argues it should be fully legal and regulated like alcohol

Drug Policy and Harm Reduction Philosophy

"Acetaminophen is responsible for at least 500 deaths a year" yet remains legal, while marijuana has never caused a fatal overdose

Rogan advocates for informed consent approach: "Give them an informed ability to make a decision for themselves. This is what it means to be a free human being"

Portugal's drug decriminalization led to plummeting crime rates and overdose deaths, providing evidence for alternative approaches

"When you make things illegal, all you do is prop up illegal people to sell those things to people that want it" - Rogan on how prohibition empowers cartels

Prohibition propped up the mafia through alcohol sales, same dynamic now funds ruthless cartels through drug trafficking

"If you were to make cocaine legal in the United States, you'd essentially put the cartels out of business" but would face initial spike in abuse and political suicide

Alex Berenson's book Tell Your Children highlights marijuana's risks for people with vulnerable psychological states or mental illness history, particularly high-dose products

Rogan distinguishes between people who thrive on marijuana versus those who shouldn't use it: "There's a lot of people that regular reality is difficult enough to manage"

EMDR Therapy and Trauma Processing

EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, developed for combat veterans who could "get triggered by a grain of sand on the beach because they were in Desert Storm"

Therapy involves holding paddles that buzz hands in rhythmic pattern while reliving identified childhood traumas repeatedly

"It was one of the most painful, agonizing things I had ever done. Just torture. It's just straight-up torture" - Siegel on the EMDR process

Sessions last anywhere from one minute to longer, requiring months of identifying haunting childhood moments before beginning reprocessing

"It literally saved me. I learned more about myself, my childhood, my behaviors than I did doing any drug, any psychedelic" - Siegel on EMDR's impact

Theory behind EMDR is eliminating physiological response to trauma recall: "You could think of something that happened to you 10 years ago and you can still get the heart palpitation and the adrenaline rush"

Siegel's therapist said "The body of research on this is so overwhelming that I would be remiss if I told you, don't try it" when discussing ketamine therapy

Psychedelics and Altered States

Ayahuasca combines DMT-containing plant with harmine (MAO inhibitor) to make dimethyltryptamine orally active, as body naturally produces monoamine oxidase that breaks down DMT in gut

"The thing about DMT is everyone's holding. If it's illegal, it's like making blood illegal" - Terrence McKenna on DMT being endogenous to human body

DMT exists in thousands of plants and grasses, produced naturally in human liver and lungs as component of normal biology

Ayahuasca purging and vomiting represents body processing the experience, with end result being impactful experiences that help people quit alcohol, cigarettes, and destructive behaviors

IV DMT clinics now operate legally in some locations, providing intense experience without digestive side effects of ayahuasca

Holotropic breathing, developed in 1970s by psychiatrist Stanislav Groff after LSD-assisted therapy became restricted, uses "prolonged, deep, rapid breathing" to induce altered states

Float tanks invented by John Lilly (also ketamine researcher) induce psychedelic-like states through sensory deprivation and high salt content buoyancy

Rogan emphasizes psychedelics aren't for everyone: "I don't think it's for people that are very vulnerable. There's a lot of people that regular reality is difficult enough to manage"

Ohio Four Case and Prosecutorial Obstruction

Former prosecutor J.D. Tomlinson agreed to vacate Ohio Four convictions, but incoming Lorain County prosecutor overturned decision weeks after Tomlinson left office

Since appearing on Rogan's podcast, Tomlinson has been under attack by current prosecutor trying to undo a previous exoneration he granted

"He was so reluctant to ever speak to me in the first place because he knew he'd be targeted" - Siegel on Tomlinson's fears about going public

Siegel received bar complaint filed by original prosecutor for standing up to exonerate someone, complaint was summarily dismissed in Ohio

"I'm so desperate for help. If anyone is living in Lorain, Ohio, you got to take a look at your local elected officials" - Siegel appealing for public pressure

Siegel and Derek Hamilton considering going to city council to raise awareness about the case

Jake Paul vs Anthony Joshua Fight Preview

Anthony Joshua weighed 243 pounds at 245-pound weight limit, Jake Paul weighed 216 pounds, creating significant size and experience gap

Joshua is Olympic gold medalist, two-time heavyweight world champion who fought Usyk twice without being stopped and beat Vladimir Klitschko in great fight

Jake Paul's previous opponents include Ben Askren, Tyron Woodley, and Nate Diaz, significantly less experienced than Joshua

Betting odds: Joshua is minus-1000 favorite (bet $1000 to win $100), Paul is plus-1050 underdog (10 to 1 odds)

"Kids got balls" - Rogan on Paul taking fight after backing out of Gervonta Davis match due to Davis's legal troubles

"If you're Anthony Joshua and you don't knock that fucking kid out, how do you show your face again in the UK?" - Siegel on expectations

Shakur Stevenson versus Teofimo Lopez scheduled January 31st at Madison Square Garden described as "phenomenal fight" between two fighters in their prime

Jellyroll received full pardon from Tennessee governor, having lost 300 pounds and become "a different fucking person"