This episode of The Joe Rogan Experience features UFC Lightweight Champion Justin Gaethje and his head coach Trevor Wittman, recorded just five days after Gaethje's stunning title victory over Ilia Topuria at a historic outdoor event at the White House grounds. Rogan opens by calling it 'one of the greatest nights I've ever experienced of watching anything in my life.'

The conversation covers the full arc of Gaethje's career — from being dropped off in Colorado at 19 with no connections, through losses to Charles Oliveira and Max Holloway, to finally capturing the lightweight belt as a 6-to-1 underdog. Wittman breaks down the tactical game plan in detail, including the footwork adjustments and jab placement that neutralized Topuria's elite boxing. The trio also discusses the psychology of expectations in combat sports, the dangers of weight cutting, referee performance, and Trevor's Onyx Sports glove innovation, which he argues is dramatically superior to current UFC-issued equipment.

Winning the Belt as a 6-to-1 Underdog at the White House

Gaethje described the title win as not yet feeling real five days later: 'I was expecting to wake up with like some kind of natural release of pressure, but I don't know, I don't feel that' — Justin

The outdoor White House setting created massive unknowns for both fighters. Wittman said he couldn't visualize the arena and was 'nervous as fuck' because there was no familiar pattern to settle into before the fight.

Gaethje shadowboxed his walkout with an American flag draped over his shoulders, pausing to look at the Declaration of Independence before walking out — though mentally he was already running fight strategy: 'Gotta reset his feet, gotta control, gotta move left' — Justin

The crowd outside the White House grounds was estimated at 85,000-plus people watching on giant screens. 'It felt like 100,000 people because all those people were behind us' — Justin

Rogan called the event 'more historic than Rumble in the Jungle' and compared the atmosphere to Woodstock, citing the combination of the White House setting, the underdog story, and the seesaw drama of the fight itself.

The Fight Breakdown: Body Shot, Ground Game, and Topuria's Mistakes

Gaethje believes the liver shot that dropped him in round two was actually the reason he won: 'Him hurting my body was the reason, one of the main reasons I won' — Justin, because it caused Topuria to expend everything in a two-minute full-power sprint.

Topuria's decision to follow Gaethje to the ground was debated. Gaethje argued it was logical given the submission record and the Khabib narrative, but says he would have stood back up regardless: 'I wasn't going to sit there and trade with him again' — Justin

Wittman compared Topuria's energy expenditure to a Shane Carwin-style blowout: 'When you get someone tired, that's where the worst decisions happen' — Trevor, and Gaethje's composure under fire was the defining factor.

Gaethje claims he stopped Topuria twice — once when Topuria appeared to signal he couldn't see to referee Mark Goddard, and once when he quit on the stool after round four. 'He quit on the stool. He quit twice. What else do I have to fucking do?' — Justin

The decisive punch was a right hand set up by Wittman's tactical blueprint: Gaethje moved left the entire fight, placed his left foot outside Topuria's rear foot after the jab, and attacked over Topuria's high shoulder. 'If you go out to the left backwards, that's where Ilia is the best' — Trevor

Gaethje landed 32 strikes to Topuria's 39 in round one by the official count, but Wittman argued the numbers were misleading: 'Justin hits unlike any... you drive through people' — Trevor, while Gaethje was rolling and deflecting most incoming shots.

The Mental Game: No Expectations, Controlled Chaos

Gaethje's core philosophy is fighting without expectations: 'My expectations come from my hard work. Obviously, I expect my body to perform' — Justin, but he refuses to script outcomes, which he says Topuria failed to do.

Wittman used an ice cream analogy to explain Topuria's mindset: people who know exactly what they want execute faster, but 'when you get that stale, nasty, rotten milk fucking mint chocolate chip, you start to go, oh shit' — Trevor

Gaethje said he told Topuria the brutal truth before the fight — that going into rounds two and three with rigid expectations would destroy him — and Topuria's reaction was to push further away from that truth: 'He wanted to prove himself right' — Justin

Gaethje has never had a coach pull him aside to address mental preparation in his entire career since age four: 'It's always been so natural to me' — Justin, attributing it partly to his faith and his upbringing in a small Arizona town.

Wittman identified the psychological damage Gaethje inflicted on Tony Ferguson and now on Topuria: changing how opponents are perceived by others. 'Nobody's ever gonna go in there thinking that he's unbeatable now' — Justin, comparing it to the aura-breaking of prime Mike Tyson and Ronda Rousey.

Career Mistakes, Losses, and the Road to the Title

Gaethje identified three major career mistakes: (1) allowing external distractions to affect him in the Oliveira fight, (2) becoming complacent after win streaks and not doing 'extra credit' work, and (3) not being mentally present for the Max Holloway fight.

The Max Holloway loss was attributed to a lack of respect for the opponent: 'I just didn't respect him' — Justin, which Wittman admitted he failed to catch as a red flag before the fight. Gaethje was so relaxed he could hear the crowd and had conscious thoughts mid-fight — something that never happens when he's fully locked in.

After losses to Eddie Alvarez and Dustin Poirier, Wittman shifted the strategy: 'We got to become a spot fighter because you just drown people... let's be sharp, let's fight in spots' — Trevor, leading to a three-fight win streak over Barboza, Cerrone, and others.

Gaethje deliberately withheld all sparring and mitt work footage during the Topuria camp: 'I didn't show myself hitting mitts one time this camp... we were switching up the game plan big time' — Justin, denying Topuria any real intelligence on the new approach.

Against Khabib, Gaethje says he tapped three times before going unconscious, but the referee refused to believe it afterward: 'I tapped 3 times, I went to sleep, and you went to sleep' — Justin

Faith, Family, Drugs, and Personal Character

Gaethje revealed he went through a period of heavy drug use in college — 'all of them' — framing it partly as research for his human services degree and partly as chasing stimulation in a boring environment near the Mexican border.

He credits his faith as the anchor that kept him from letting drug use become a crutch: 'The best thing they ever did for me was make me go to church every single Sunday and create a relationship with God through the word of Jesus Christ' — Justin

The final turning point came around 2016 when he woke up in an ambulance: 'I'm pretty sure I died. And I was like, I will never fucking do that again. My parents do not deserve that' — Justin

After the Max Holloway knockout, Gaethje's first memory was seeing his mother's face in the ambulance — and her calm expression was what snapped him out of the loop of asking 'did I get knocked out?' every two minutes.

Wittman described Gaethje's character as revealed in his subconscious reactions: after the Max loss, still concussed in the ambulance, Gaethje repeatedly said 'good for him' when told Max won. 'That is something that stands out to me. That's character' — Trevor

Weight Cutting, Referee Failures, and Fighter Safety

Wittman raised a serious concern linking chronic weight cutting to late-round boxing deaths: 'Almost all of them are past the 9th round... if you dehydrate your brain, that to me is what scares me about weight cutting' — Trevor, citing research he discussed with a doctor.

Gaethje weighed 184 pounds the night before the fight and woke at approximately 176, illustrating the scale of water fluctuation even without a traditional weight cut. He was so hydrated post-fight that he had to urinate three times before passing the drug test due to diluted urine.

Gaethje criticized referee Mike Beltran for failing to stop action after an eye poke in the Michael Chandler fight, then asking 'are you good?' instead of invoking the mandatory five-minute recovery rule: 'His job is to protect me, and he failed' — Justin

Gaethje praised referee Mark Goddard for allowing the Topuria fight to continue when Topuria appeared to signal he was done, saying a less experienced referee would have stopped it prematurely.

Gaethje trains without drinking any water during sessions, calling it a mental toughness tool: 'Water's for pussies' — Justin, though Wittman noted this contributed to the Tony Ferguson fight where no water was given in the corner for a full five-round bout.

Trevor Wittman's Onyx Sports Gloves vs. UFC Equipment

Wittman's Onyx Sports gloves are designed around a natural hand position — curved at rest, promoting a closed fist without muscular effort — versus UFC gloves which are flat and require constant muscular tension to form a proper fist.

Gaethje has never broken his hand when Wittman tapes him, and Wittman has not used hand wraps himself since 2015. The gloves feature internal strapping that locks the hand in position without external wraps.

Wittman revealed the UFC previously engaged him under an NDA, moved from a five-year to a two-year agreement, and adopted some of his ideas but could not execute them to his standard. Hunter (UFC executive) recently re-initiated contact about a potential deal.

Rogan argued that a mitten-style fingertip cover could reduce eye pokes by 80%, but Gaethje pushed back, saying tactile feedback through the fingers is critical for reading distance and opponent movement intuitively during a fight.

Wittman's long-term goal is a glove that eliminates the need for hand wraps entirely, creating a level playing field: 'If one fighter has tape wrapping their hands and the other one has house wrapping the hands, they're wrapping differently. Which one's better for breaks?' — Trevor

What's Next: Future Fights, Compensation, and Retirement

Gaethje is taking the rest of 2025 off to heal a severe bone edema in the tip of his fibula that occurred on Christmas Day and was never fully resolved through training camp.

He has fought twice in less than six months in 2025 (Paddy Pimblett and Topuria) and says there is 'not something natural in me that feels like it's over,' suggesting he intends to continue fighting.

Gaethje believes Arman Tsarukyan — who bet $5.7 million on him and won — is the logical next opponent: 'That is the guy. I mean, if there's anybody else in the division, that is the guy' — Justin

He ruled out a Topuria rematch emphatically: 'He doesn't get a rematch. He can try, but he doesn't get one. He quit on the stool' — Justin, adding that Topuria should fight someone like Paddy Pimblett next.

On compensation, Gaethje said he wants equity in a UFC-related company for passive income rather than just per-fight pay: 'The UFC should make a company and give me equity in that company' — Justin, citing his role in delivering on UFC 300, UFC 324, and the White House event.

Resources Mentioned

The Social Work and Human Services Treatment Planner, with DSM 5 Updates (PracticePlanners)

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.. if you dehydrate your brain, that to me is what scares me about weight cutting' — Trevor, citing research he discussed with a doctor. Gaethje weighed 184 pounds the night before the fight and woke

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atered down in a way, and so you're just gonna water it down more. So these are my thoughts and my research that I've done, that, that it's, it's— I've talked to Dr. D about it, and I want to get som

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. But if you go back and look at all the boxers, and if we can get someone that could do their true research that understands this stuff, that to me is like what scares me about weight cutting, becaus

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MMA champions. Absolutely. It's the most important— great business people. Like, they— I watched a study a long time ago. They said that the boxing and wrestling created the best employees because ac

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Thank you. All right, bye. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact: research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to 2 2.5 years longer on average