The episode features Terry Real, a therapist considered one of the world's foremost experts on male psychology and male-female dynamics in romantic relationships, in conversation with Andrew Huberman, professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

They address the mental health crisis facing men, including record-high rates of depression and suicide, declining participation in romantic relationships, and the widespread lack of close friendships among men.

Real explains that men must view relating as a skill requiring both feelings and the ability to process and communicate those feelings appropriately, while also emphasizing the critical importance of male fraternity and community.

The discussion explores how traditional masculinity has evolved, the difference between gratification and relational joy, and practical tools for men to build strong self-concept, agency, and confidence while thriving in relationships and work.

The Crisis of Modern Masculinity and Regression

"The old role is shifted. The sand is shifted under our feet. And we're trying to figure out what the hell we are" - Terry Real on why men are struggling with identity and mental health

The biggest response to confusion about masculinity has been regressive rather than progressive, with celebration of traditional traits like dominance, aggression, and entitlement seen globally in politics and culture

"The essence of traditional masculinity is stoicism. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly. But we are vulnerable as human beings. That's a lie. Denying our vulnerability is a lie" - Terry Real

Traditional masculinity creates chronic anxiety and depression because men measure themselves against an impossible, inhuman standard of invulnerability that isn't real

"We connect to each other through vulnerability. That's how human beings connect. And men are walled off" - Terry Real on why stoicism prevents genuine connection

Disconnection as the Path to Traditional Manhood

"The way we turn boys into men traditionally in this culture is through disconnection. You disconnect from your feelings, you disconnect from vulnerability, you disconnect from others" - Terry Real

The monosyllabic adolescent boy who won't answer his mother is not psychologically normal but rather a mandate of traditional masculinity that is harmful

The story of achieving autonomy has no basis in real psychology - it's just patriarchy disguised as developmental necessity

Many younger men have recovered more feeling and emotional access but haven't developed the art of connection, leading to relationships where they bring traditional male privilege to emotional expression

"It's like, I'm emotional now, come and take care of me. And a lot of the women are complaining that these guys are kind of children" - Terry Real on emotionally expressive but still entitled men

Gratification Versus Relational Joy

"There's a deeper pleasure that I call relational joy. Sometimes your kids are gratifying. Sometimes you want to throw them through the goddamn window. But there's a deeper down joy in just being there and being connected" - Terry Real

High-achieving men often excel at gratification (wealth, power, success) but lack understanding of relational joy, which comes from simply being present in relationships

American culture is anti-relational and narcissistic, with this dynamic persisting even as some terms of patriarchy have changed - it's just different variations of the same problem

"Being connected, being intimate with yourself and with others, that's what we humans are born for. That's how we're designed. We're pack animals" - Terry Real

The lack of intimate connection is bad psychologically and physically, with science now clearly showing that being connected and related is essential to human wellbeing

How to Express Emotions Without Regressing

Healthy emotional expression looks like a negotiation, not a demand - it requires asking for help rather than dumping feelings on others or expecting them to fix you

Terry Real called mutual friend Bea before the podcast to express nervousness, received support and information, then reciprocated by supporting her - demonstrating healthy vulnerability and connection

"What men lose when we don't, when we're not in touch with our vulnerabilities, is we lose the capacity to ask somebody to help them. But it's ask someone, not demand" - Terry Real

"I know how you can disarm an angry woman in five seconds, 50% of the time, which is better than you're doing. Give her what she wants. Let me ask you, what's going on with you and do what I can to help out" - Terry Real

When confronted with an upset partner, duck under the horrible delivery and get to the point - ask "what do you need?" rather than reacting to how criticism is delivered

Self-Esteem: Inside Out Versus Outside In

"Self-esteem comes from the inside out. I have worth because I'm here and I'm breathing. I don't have to earn it. I can't add to it. I can't subtract from it" - Terry Real

Men are taught outside-in self-esteem based on performance (muscles, sexual prowess, career success, achievements), which works when performing well but leads to shame when failing

Healthy self-esteem is the capacity to feel "I screwed up, I hurt you, I'm sorry" while simultaneously holding yourself in warm regard as an imperfect person

Men typically oscillate between shameless bad behavior (grandiose, irresponsible) and shame ("I'm a useless piece of shit"), both of which are forms of self-preoccupation

"If you don't have healthy self-esteem, you can't afford to be accountable because it's too overwhelming to admit how imperfect you are" - Terry Real on why self-esteem work enables relational skill

The Maasai Warrior Model of Wholeness

Terry Real conducted a men's group with Maasai elders in Tanzania for four nights, discussing God, women, death, and what makes a good warrior

"When the moment calls for fierceness, a good Marani is a killer. And they are. They're warriors. Don't kill you. Don't cross them" - Maasai elder

"When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Marani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby. What makes a great Marani is knowing which moment is which" - Maasai elder

"I want adaptability, flexibility, and wholeness. Strong, vulnerable, related, firm, all of our capacities. That's a man" - Terry Real on the ideal of integrated masculinity

The goal is not to choose between hard and soft but to be skilled - knowing when to be fierce and when to be tender, with the wisdom to discern which moment calls for which response

Responsible Distance Taking and Break Protocol

When flooded emotionally, men must bring the prefrontal cortex back online by taking breaks - walk, breathe, go around the block, get recentered in the thoughtful part of yourself

Contract for breaks when the heat is not on: "Listen, honey, I get flooded and you don't want me flooded. I'm not nice. I won't be nice. I won't be skilled when I'm flooded. I need to collect myself" - Terry Real

Responsible distance taking means saying: "Here's why, and here's when I'm coming back. It's not a rupture. It's a break" - typically 15-20 minutes, then return

For partners vulnerable to abandonment, unilateral distance ("I'm gone") triggers chasing behavior, but responsible distance taking prevents this by providing reassurance and timeline

"If I don't take care of you, I'm going to get chased. It's in my interest to behave with skill" - Terry Real on why relational skill serves self-interest

The Crisis of Male Loneliness and Fraternity

Single men are the greatest public health crisis, with many men having few to no friends - when a hetero couple's woman dies, men are in deep trouble without social connections

Terry Real teaches men to experiment with vulnerability: pick one friend from your golf group, share something real (chronic pain, job loss, fears), and see how they respond

"If you try that with Steve and you get, oh yeah, what about those socks? Well, he ain't having it. Okay, nice experiment. You're done with Steve. Go back to your superficial relationship" - Terry Real

"You talk to Dave, and Dave says, I can really hear you, man. That's tough. I've been worried, too, about blah, blah, blah. My dick ain't working the way it used to. And all of a sudden, you're having a heart-to-heart in a way that you may never have had in your life before" - Terry Real

Young men today lack fraternities (not college fraternities but communities of men) where they can figure out what they're good at, what they suck at, and what they could get better at

Andrew Huberman's advice to struggling young men: "Do you know one person who's a good person? Go to Yosemite and hike. Make a friend by going and doing something"

Training Friends to Support Relationality

"You want to train your friends to support your relationship, not your individual empowerment" - Terry Real on cultivating healthy male friendships

When complaining about relationship difficulties to friends, don't accept "I wouldn't put up with that if I was you" - that's supporting individual empowerment, not relational maturity

Instead, train friends to ask: "Okay, Terry, what did you do to contribute to that? And what might you do differently?" - supporting the mature, relational part rather than individual entitlement

Men's groups don't need therapists to lead them - get together with four other guys and start talking about your lives, supporting each other's growth and relationality

Robert Bly's men's movement (drumming in the woods, Iron John) had valuable insights but needed to emphasize taking relational skills home to families, not just being intimate with other men on weekends

How Women Can Empower Men Relationally

"You don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for" - Terry Real on women's responsibility in relationships

Three steps for women getting more of what they want: (1) Dare to rock the boat - "Honey, this is really important to me. I don't think you've been listening. You better pay attention"

Step two: Teach him what you want - "Don't expect them to know. I've been listening to women for 40 years tell me men don't know how to be relational. Guess what? I believe you. So how are they going to know if you don't tell them?" - Terry Real

Step three: Reward them when they try - "Celebrate the glass 14% full. Hey, you did a half-assed job. Good for you. What are we going to do to get the other half on?"

Women must stay humble and subjective rather than positioning themselves as relational coaches - "I can teach you what I need. I'm not your relational coach. That's a trap" - Terry Real

Subjective Requests Versus Objective Battles

Classic objectivity battle example: She says "you're a reckless driver," he says "you're overly nervous" - this can go on literally for decades with both marshaling evidence

Relational approach: "Honey, I know you love me. When you drive on your own, it's your life. Do what you do. When I'm in the car with you and you're tailgating and speeding, I don't know, maybe I'm nervous. But nevertheless, when I'm sitting next to you, I get crazy. I'm scared"

"You love me. You don't really want me to be scared out of my mind every time I'm sitting next to you when we're driving. As a favor to me, when I'm in the car, could you please slow down?" - Terry Real's example

True story result: "Him to her: Uh, sure, honey. And he did. And what might have been a fight that lasted 40 years was done in 15 minutes" - Terry Real

"The beauty about speaking subjectively is nobody can argue with you. Well, you shouldn't get nervous. I know, but I do" - Terry Real on why subjective language works

Criticism Protocol: The Feedback Wheel

"Inside of every complaint is a request. Think about that. Every complaint has an implicit request in it. Unless you absolutely have to, nine out of ten times, skip the complaint and just go for the request" - Terry Real

Men are criticism-phobic because they base self-esteem on performance - "Don't tell your guy what he's doing wrong. Tell him what he could be doing a little better. Hey, you're doing a great job. This would work better" - Terry Real

When criticism is necessary, use the four-part feedback wheel (two sentences each): (1) This is what happened, as I recollect it (2) This is the story I told myself about it (3) This is what I felt (4) This is what would make me feel better

Example: "You said you were going to be home at 7. You didn't call or text. You showed up at 7:45. The kids and I were waiting for you. The story I told myself was, you can be selfish. You got caught up, you forgot about us, your work was more important. What I feel: I was hurt. This would help me feel better: [specific repair request]"

"We have no attention span for being criticized, so four sentences is enough" - Janet Hurley's original rule, expanded to eight sentences (two per part) for Terry Real's clients

Addiction as Pain of Disconnection

"What we self-medicate, when we self-medicate, is the pain of disconnection. And the cure for addiction is intimacy" - Terry Real

"All trauma is, is the lack of relationality. What we find intolerable is how lonely we are. And we turn to what I call a misery stabilizer to make our loneliness tolerable to ourselves" - Terry Real

Three levels of addiction treatment: Level A - the addiction itself (12-step programs for getting sober), Level B - immaturities of personality to sort out, Level C - trauma work with the wounded child

"The king of recovery is learning how to be connected to yourself, first and foremost, and to the people around you. That's the cure for addiction" - Terry Real

12-step meetings teach intimacy through the conjunction of truth and love - people share horrible things and "not one person will lift a finger to make it better. We'll just be with each other. And I find that spiritually refreshing" - Alan's description of Al-Anon

The Unholy Triad and Absent Fathers

"Absent dads is the norm for many people in this culture. And absence can be as wounding as violent presences. Neglect can be as wounding" - Terry Real

Robert Bly: "Every time a young man walks down the corridor and says hello to an older, more successful man, and that man does not say hello back, that's a wound in the soul of the young man"

The unholy triad of patriarchy: absent or irresponsible dad, unhappy but accommodating mom, and sweet, smart, sensitive little boy who feels his mother's pain and moves into caretaking her

"His template for relationship is: I'm a caretaker. It's not mutual. And I'm taking care of them. That is endemic in our culture. Very common" - Terry Real

This pattern creates love-avoidant men whose template is "you don't really care about me, so I'll be in the relationship, but I don't want to get swallowed up by you. So I'll be in the relationship, but I'll also be very distant"

Unstructured Time and Relational Joy

Rock star client described himself: "When I'm on stage in front of 60,000 people, I'm alive. When I come home and I'm with my wife and four kids, I'm like a computer on sleep mode. I'm just half shut down and depressed"

Terry Real's intervention: "I want you to start saying yes, yes, yes. Dad, let's go for a walk. Oh, okay. Get yourself up out of the chair and go be"

Six months later, the client reported: "This Sunday, I had the best day of my life. My wife, me, and my four kids, we didn't get out of our PJs all day. We sat around and played Monopoly from 7 in the morning till 7 at night. I had no idea where the time went"

Barbara Chapman's daughters at her memorial: "The thing we remember best, and that we loved about her the most was all the unstructured time. She would just hang out with us" - Andrew Huberman's story about his graduate advisor

"Families operate in the interstices. I hate quality time. It's a yuppie invention. You want your kid to talk to you? They're in the back seat while you're driving to hockey practice. Then they'll open up and talk to you" - Terry Real

The Anti-Harshness Campaign

"There is no redeeming value in harshness. Let me say it again. There is nothing. Be firm, but with love, not harshness. And that's you treating others. That's the way you allow others to treat you. And very much that's the way you treat you" - Terry Real

"At 75, I have a deal with the universe. If it isn't kind, I'm not interested" - Terry Real on his personal anti-harshness campaign

Story of the ruined shirt: Terry Real was signing books with a Sharpie, didn't cap it, and it leaked on his expensive shirt - his adaptive child started harsh self-criticism

His response to the harsh inner voice: "Listen, sweetheart, let me tell you something. The same ADD brain that ruined this shirt is the brain that wrote the books that were being autographed. So, how about you cut me some slack? This shirt, cost to do a business. Sit down and let me enjoy my wine. And he did"

"We don't have to be passive about these things. We can shape what goes on in our relationships, including our relationships to ourselves. That harsh voice turns on you and you say, honey, stop. The first time you do it, they'll laugh at you. The 300th time you do it, that's called liberation" - Terry Real

Relational Ecology and Stewardship

"We're not individuals. That's the great fallacy. We're living in a context. Our relationships are our biospheres. We're not separated from them. We're in them. And it's in my interest to do what the biosphere needs because I'm inside it" - Terry Real

Gregory Bateson (father of family therapy, married to Margaret Mead) called it "humankind's epistemological, philosophical mistake that we stand outside of nature"

"You live with her. It's like, we have lost the wisdom of ecology. You're in this together. Indigenous people around the world understand this. We don't. We're not above nature dominating it" - Terry Real

"This is the essence of the new masculinity. To understand life as a human as relational. Relational and ecological. I'm not above it. I'm in it. And I'm a steward of it. It's in my interest to give to my biosphere. That is wisdom" - Terry Real

Terry Real's son in residency example: leaving a 10-second message "I'm alive, I'm fine, don't worry about me" prevents having to deal with worried mother calling - it's an investment in future well-being through relational skill

Fighting Versus Repair in Long-Term Relationships

Terry Real and his wife Belinda both grew up in violent families and their adaptive children are fighters - 30 years ago they would fight for weeks with yelling, screaming, rage

Now 99% of the time when they start to fight, within 15-20 minutes one of them says: "I don't want to fight. Do you really want to fight? I mean, we could, but I don't really want to, honey. What do you need?"

"Belinda will say to me, well, you really were an asshole about dot, dot, dot. And I'll go, yeah, I was. You're right. I'm sorry. I'll work on that. What do you need? She'll say, well, you could really apologize about one, two, three. I'll go, I'll apologize about one. 20 years ago: well, what about two and three? Now: good, one, fine, we'll take it" - Terry Real

"What I'm really thinking in that moment is: How do I want to spend my evening? Is it really worth it to me to prove my point and nail her into the ground? Or can we make peace efficiently and skillfully and move the hell on?" - Terry Real

"All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair" - Ed Tronik, infant observational researcher whose work Terry Real borrowed from