Dmitri Tokarev, founder of institutional crypto custody platform Copper, joins the show to discuss his transition from raising $300 million at a $1.25 billion valuation to building Bronze, a next-generation self-custody wallet company. Tokarev stepped down as Copper CEO in December 2024 to focus on solving critical security and recovery problems in crypto self-custody.

The conversation covers the evolution of crypto infrastructure over seven years, from the early days when Copper sponsored Blockworks' first event in 2019 with a modest budget to today's institutional adoption. Tokarev discusses the challenges of hypergrowth during the zero interest rate era, the lessons learned from scaling too quickly, and his current focus on democratizing institutional-grade wallet technology for individual users.

The Copper Journey: From Startup to $300M Raise

Copper raised $300 million across multiple rounds, reaching a $1.25 billion valuation at its peak, competing primarily against US-based players like Anchorage, BitGo, Fireblocks, and Coinbase Custody.

"99% of deals that we've lost went to Anchorage, Coinbase Custody, Fireblocks or BitGo" - Dmitri, noting Copper's position as the primary non-US competitor in institutional custody.

The company experienced extreme growth from 36 people in October 2021 to 236 people in October 2022, hiring "slightly less than one person per day" during peak expansion.

Tokarev stepped down as CEO in December 2024, citing the need for US-based leadership to access American financial institutions and potential exit opportunities.

Physical Security Crisis in Crypto Self-Custody

Physical attacks on crypto holders occur "weekly" according to Tokarev's awareness, with criminals targeting elderly Bitcoin early adopters and those who publicly display their holdings.

Social engineering scams involve bribing exchange customer support staff to obtain user transaction histories, then calling victims with convincing details to steal funds.

"They basically told him on which date which transactions he sent" - Dmitri describing how scammers used leaked Coinbase data to convince a friend to transfer $100,000 in Bitcoin.

US Secret Service, UK National Crime Agency, and Ontario Police formed "Operation Atlantic" to combat DeFi phishing scams that drain wallets through malicious allowances.

Bronze: Democratizing Institutional Wallet Technology

Bronze uses Multi-Party Computation (MPC) technology that eliminates private keys, the same approach institutions have used since 2020-2021 for managing large crypto holdings.

The platform offers programmable security policies, inheritance features for family access, 48-hour recovery processes, and hidden wallet functionality for protection against street-level theft.

Bronze currently serves 1,000 users managing approximately $1 billion in assets, primarily "family offices, executives, founders" rather than retail consumers.

Drawing from Read Write Own by Chris Dixon, Tokarev structured Bronze with no equity - only utility tokens with KPI-based unlocks tied to user growth rather than time-based vesting.

Market Outlook and Investment Strategy

Bitcoin's realized value sits around $56,000, representing "the average global buy-in price for Bitcoin" across all holders, historically serving as a reliable market bottom indicator.

Tokarev bought Bitcoin "for the first time in like two years" when it dipped into the 60s during Iran tensions, viewing it as "bottom-y" behavior.

His current portfolio focuses on "the big three" (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana), Canton for Wall Street integration, and decentralized derivatives protocols like Hyperliquid.

"I'm super bullish on salespeople again" - Dmitri predicting that AI advancement will make human relationship-building more valuable in B2B sales.