The episode features Senator Joe Manchin, author of Dead Center In Defense of Common Sense, interviewed by Jason Calacanis and Chamath Palihapitiya on the All-In podcast.

Manchin discusses his political career spanning multiple presidential administrations, from Obama through two Trump terms and Biden's presidency, offering insider perspectives on legislative battles.

The conversation covers Manchin's opposition to Build Back Better, his defense of the filibuster, immigration reform failures, and the dysfunction of closed primary systems that disenfranchise independent voters.

Manchin shares personal stories about his upbringing in West Virginia coal country, his grandmother's rules for helping those in need, and how these experiences shaped his fiscal conservatism and social compassion.

The senator reflects on term limits, the rise of extremism in both parties, potential 2028 presidential candidates, and whether he would consider running as an independent.

The 50/50 Senate and Reconciliation Power

Mansion explains the Senate filibuster as "the holy grail to democracy" requiring 60 votes for closure, designed so the Senate cools down hot legislation from the House like "a hot cup of tea."

Chuck Schumer called Mansion repeatedly on election night 2020 about Georgia runoffs. When both Democratic senators won, Schumer said "you can probably have anything you want" - Mansion replied "I just want my country to do well."

Reconciliation is the only Senate vehicle allowing 51-vote threshold without 60-vote closure, used for financial responsibilities. Mansion believed Schumer planned to run four reconciliation bills across the 117th Congress (2021-2022).

Harry Reid eliminated the filibuster for judicial appointments in 2013 despite Mansion's opposition. Mansion warned this would lead to Republicans doing the same for Supreme Court, which happened under Mitch McConnell, creating a 6-3 conservative court.

American Rescue Plan: The $5 Trillion Fight

Biden proposed $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan in February 2021 after $3.2 trillion already spent on COVID relief in 2020. Mansion opposed doubling the country's $5 trillion annual cash flow: "You can't digest that. The market can't take it."

At the White House, Biden grabbed Mansion's arm and said "Joe, your country needs you." Mansion grabbed back: "Country needs you, too. It needs us all." He begged Biden to put the bill through jurisdictional committees with a 60-day deadline instead of reconciliation.

"We've sent everybody a check. And if we've missed anybody, it was by mistake" - Mansion to Biden, warning about inflation. "They want to go spend money and there's nobody working. The supply chains are shut down. You're just fueling it, sir."

Biden became "pretty vulgar" during negotiations, telling Mansion "if you kill my effing bill I'll never talk to you again." Mansion responded: "If I could kill this effing bill you shouldn't talk to me again."

Build Back Better: Eight Months Under Siege

BBB started at $6 trillion, "10 trillion if it was a penny with all the revamping." Mansion told Biden: "I'm sorry, man. I can't get there." This triggered eight months of pressure campaigns requiring security detail.

Capitol Police called daily about serious death threats. "They know where your children go to school. They know where your grandchildren are, where your kids live." Mansion's friends on the Potomac River reported protesters were paid $15/hour to harass him.

"Canoes" attacked Mansion's houseboat. He invited the climate protesters to his office: "We just disagree." They came the next day, talked, and "agreed to disagree on some things and agreed on some things."

Mansion blamed Ron Klain for pushing Biden left: "You have the most liberal staff that I've ever seen." Biden replied "they tell me I have the most diversified staff." Mansion: "We're not talking about diversity, sir. We're talking about bat crazy."

At final White House meeting in living quarters, Mansion invoked JFK: "I remember very vividly as a 13-year-old kid watching television, inauguration 1961... ask not what your country can do for you. If we pass BBB, you're changing the psychic to how much more can my country do for me."

Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal and Bernie's Threat

Schumer agreed to pull infrastructure from BBB if Mansion would "vote to get on BBB." Mansion clarified: "I'll get on and let you work the bill. I'm never going to be for this bill." This created confusion about whether he "promised" to support BBB.

On Senate floor the night infrastructure passed, Bernie Sanders asked if Mansion would vote for BBB. "Hell no, Bernie. You know I was never been for that bill." Bernie: "At least you're being honest with me."

Bernie claimed he cut BBB from $6 trillion to $3 trillion. Mansion: "You didn't cut it down. All you did was cut the timing down from 10 years to 5 years or 3 years... You know they're never going to get rid of any of this once you start giving everything away."

Bernie threatened: "I can kill this bill" - referring to House progressives blocking infrastructure. The bill was held up for weeks with progressives claiming "Manchin lied to us." Mansion told Schumer: "You better tell them the truth."

Obama, Trump, and Presidential Engagement

Mansion spoke with Trump more in his first two years than in eight years under Obama. Trump and Bill Clinton were "the most engaged presidents" he worked with, while Obama was "elusive."

As senator, Obama supported coal and FutureGen, a billion-dollar CO2 capture project. As presidential nominee, "he switched everything to renewables." Mansion: "What are we going to do with all the things that the coal miners have done?"

In Roosevelt Room meeting, Mansion told Obama: "You've done one hell of a good job at villainizing coal." Obama "jumped up and went nuts." Mansion explained Obama set impossible benchmarks: "You're leaving us behind. These people have nothing."

Obama's slogan "don't leave anybody behind" was adopted by Biden in 2020. "They ran them off. Now all of a sudden we're not good enough, clean enough, green enough, or smart enough" - Mansion on West Virginia Democrats leaving the party.

Trump was "charming as can be" in meetings, discussing various topics. Mansion told him: "Just call me last. I don't know who in the hell you talk to last, but that seems what happens. I'd like to have one of those dates."

Trump campaigned against Mansion six times in 2018, spending extra $25 million. One week after Mansion won, Trump called: "Come have lunch with me." Trump: "I told you we couldn't beat him." Mansion: "It wasn't for lack of trying."

Work Requirements and Entitlement Philosophy

Mansion's grandmother took in homeless railroad workers in the 1950s with three rules: "Can't drink. Can't swear. You've got to work." This shaped his belief that "there was rules and they were all good rules."

Grandfather kept money in his pocket, no books. When people asked to borrow $5: "Here's a broom and shovel. Go up and clean the parking lot and I'll give you the five." Only about half took him up on it - "that's a filtering mechanism."

On child tax credits: "You have child tax credits up to $400,000 of income." Mansion wanted them targeted at working single females earning $25,000-$75,000. "Why would they need child care money when they're sitting home with their children?"

Mansion opposed Bernie Sanders' free college tuition. "My son's 40 years old. If you had free education, he'd still be in school. He liked it so much." Instead proposed forgiving Stafford loans after completion: "They've earned it. You didn't give it on the front end."

Students can get $12,000/year in loans but might only need $4,000. "You tell a kid that comes from poverty they can get 12,000, they'll take it all. They don't know what accrued interest is... It's a death trap."

Term Limits: The Courage to Admit Mistakes

At town hall, constituent said she wished Mansion supported term limits. He gave standard arguments about losing experienced people. She replied: "If we had term limits, maybe we get one good term out of you." Mansion: "I had no comeback. She convinced me right there."

Mansion proposes: two six-year Senate terms (12 years), six two-year House terms (12 years), one 18-year Supreme Court term, one six-year presidential term. "Maybe we could all do a better job by not worrying about the next election."

"Public service truly when John Kennedy says the most noblest of all profession... that's gone. It's fame and fortune now." Politicians can't admit mistakes: "I screwed up royally on don't ask don't tell."

In 2011, Marine Commandant said 50% of troops were on battle lines, policy change could "jeopardize the welfare and well-being of my troops." Mansion voted against repealing don't ask don't tell, later realized: "I was totally wrong... Everybody already knew."

Healthcare Reform and Immigration Failures

Before John McCain's famous thumbs-down vote in 2017, Mansion told him in Senate hallway: "I'm not crazy about Affordable Care Act... but John, if the Republicans have anything they can give us, I probably support it. They don't have anything to replace it with."

ACA helped poor working people using emergency rooms and stopped pre-existing condition exclusions, but "somebody had to pay for it." Above 150% poverty line "were hit pretty hard." During COVID, Democrats expanded to 400% poverty line.

"Insurance companies are running health care. It's not the professional doctors... It's insurance telling you what you can, what you can't, what you're paying for, chasing the dollars. That has to change."

2013 Gang of Eight passed bipartisan immigration reform 68-69 votes in Senate. Mansion begged John Boehner to put it on House floor. Boehner refused because Eric Cantor lost his primary to Tea Party challenger over immigration.

The 2013 bill required immigrants to go to courthouse within 60-90 days, pay $750 fine for misdemeanor, get in back of queue. Background checks would identify criminals. "These are productive, supportive. They love the country as much if not more than Americans that were born here."

On Roe v Wade: "We lived with Roe v Wade for 50 years of unprecedented law. We never codified it." Mansion worked with Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins to simply codify it, but Democrats "wanted to open up wide wide open abortions" and Republicans wanted to criminalize it.

The Debt Crisis and National Security

At Mansion's first Armed Services meeting in 2011, Admiral Mike Mullen was asked about America's greatest threat. "I thought he's going to talk about China, North Korea, Iran... He says the debt of the nation will take us down."

National debt now at $37 trillion. "Every $5 that we receive for revenue to run our country takes $1... 20% just to pay the interest on our debt. That's horrible."

Mullen warned unmanaged debt "will make us lead us to make cowardly decisions." This remains Mansion's "biggest concern" about America's future.

Closed Primaries and Independent Voters

"You have a duopoly right now... the corporation of the Republican and the corporation of the Democrat and that's a business mode and they can control the flow" through closed primaries.

In 2024 election, "24 million people maybe 11 or 12 on each side participated in the national primary but 160 million of us voted in the general election but 24 million people made a decision on our choices."

"45 to 50% of us can't participate in the primary process. We're the largest nomination of registered voters who can't participate." Only 23-24% registered Democrats, 27-28% Republicans, rest are independents.

Mansion proposes legal challenge: "The Voting Rights Act... about African-Americans not having the right to participate and vote and they won that one. Why don't we take this to court?... I am not able to be represented and I can't pick a representative cuz I can't participate."

Senate Dynamics and Bipartisan Potential

Mansion's go-to senators include former governors: Angus King (Maine), Mark Warner (Virginia), Tim Kaine (Virginia), Jean Shaheen (New Hampshire), Maggie Hassan (New Hampshire), Mike Rounds (South Dakota), John Hoeven (North Dakota).

"A governor can't afford to be a governor of one side... that pothole that busted my tire and basically bent my rim and messed my car up did not have a Democrat or Republican name on it."

Republicans Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, and Mitt Romney "were always my go-to people... You could always work with them because they were always looking to do the right thing. They didn't care about politics."

Bill Cassidy "is one of the best of the best. Bright, sharp, always wanting to do the right thing, always very articulate and he will get down to the nitty-gritty and go into the depths of it to find out an answer."

Mansion's advice if "king for a day": bring leadership to Roosevelt Room, "put Schumer and put John Thune and put their teams together and say, 'Guys, you're not getting out till you come to a deal. This is not that hard.'"

2026 and 2028: Future of American Politics

For 2026, Mansion hopes "Republicans keep the Senate" because they promise not to eliminate the filibuster. For balance, "you'd want the Democrats to win the House... then it might calm it down. We've got to turn down the temperature."

When Biden dropped out, Mansion "begged the Democratic party to have a mini primary, 30-day primary." When Biden endorsed Kamala Harris within hours, "it was over... I knew we were in trouble then."

Mansion would have run in a speed primary: "I'd have been right in there... talking about things we're talking about now. Do we need energy? Absolutely... do you need a strong border?... Why can't we protect our borders, but also have a legal immigration policy that works."

For 2028 Democratic candidates, Mansion mentions Mark Warner, Andy Beshear (Kentucky governor, "good family"), Josh Shapiro (Pennsylvania), and surprisingly Stephen A. Smith: "He is incredible... as center left, center right as you want. He can go both. He's not going to go extreme."

Mitt Romney and Mansion discussed running together. Romney: "We'll call it the not stupid party." Mansion: "My question is why we're involved then." Romney later said: "They don't want two old white guys running." Mansion: "We're the youngest ones out there right now."

At 78 years old, Mansion will be 81 in 2028. "I'll do anything I can to help my country... The good Lord gives me the health and strength to participate. Any way I possibly can, I will."

Bernie Sanders and AOC rallies haven't worked: "If that was effective and that's where the country's going, why has the Democrats lost over 100,000 people who've left the Democratic party since they've started that crusade?"