Tyler Cowen interviews Kim Bowes, an archaeologist at the University of Pennsylvania and author of Surviving Rome The Economic Lives of the 90%. Bowes specializes in the history of Christianity, religious spaces, and domestic life in the Roman Empire, using archaeological methods to understand how ordinary people lived.

The conversation explores Roman domestic architecture, revealing how elite homes functioned as business centers with every surface decorated in ways modern people would find garish. They discuss the absence of basic amenities like bathrooms and addresses, the slow adoption of Christianity post-Constantine, and the sophisticated yet informal nature of Roman economic thinking.

Bowes argues that Surviving Rome presents evidence for much higher Roman population levels and living standards than previously thought, with ordinary people accessing consumer goods from across the empire. The discussion covers Roman monetary systems, the role of slavery, trade networks extending to India and China, and ultimately examines how population decline and monetary crisis contributed to imperial transformation.

Roman Elite Homes: Colorful Business Machines

Roman elite houses were 'machines for the production of social status' with every surface covered in decoration that would appear 'garish' and 'kitschy' to modern eyes

These homes were built for business, not leisure - 'the idea of going off to work is entirely a 19th century idea' with all work conducted in domestic spaces

Navigation required asking people for directions since addresses didn't exist in the modern sense, though this worked in cities of typically 2,000-3,000 people

Sanitation and Daily Life Realities

Even wealthy homes typically had zero bathrooms, with residents using pots and public latrines that emperors charged fees to access

Cities like Pompeii had stepping stones across streets to avoid refuse, despite having 'really good public sanitation' that was 'just not quite good enough'

Romans kept dogs as pets and had images warning 'beware of the dog' (cave canem), but surprisingly few cats and limited chicken consumption despite the protein advantages

Christianity's Slow Adoption After Constantine

Post-Constantine, 'most people aren't Christian for a really long time' - it took 'a good 50 years, if not longer, for rich people to really say we're going to go along with this new religion'

Early Christians believed in bodily resurrection, which was 'new in the world' and 'quite unfamiliar in a Greco-Roman world and even in a Jewish world'

The cross was a 'latecomer to Christian identity' - the earliest symbol was the chi-rho (Greek initials of Christ) that looked like an X and P superimposed

Roman Economic Sophistication Without Theory

Romans 'absolutely' understood supply and demand, knowing that 'at the harvest, when there's a large supply, the prices go down' and planned accordingly

However, they lacked 'an organized, systematized way of thinking about economic activity that is discrete and separate from other kinds of activity'

Money lending was decentralized through friends and family because 'the Roman big state is really a kind of mask for an empire of friends and family'

Gold coins were more common in daily use than previously thought, with new Pompeii evidence showing 'gold coins actually in cash boxes and collections of coins being used for day-to-day use'

Consumer Economy Across the Empire

Archaeological evidence reveals ordinary Romans had 'at least two or three tunics, and two or three cloaks, and a whole range of undergarments, and socks' in colorful patterns

Clothing came from long distances - 'if you lived in Rome, your clothes might even come from sheep in Gaul' rather than being homemade

Romans had 'more different kinds of dishes of more different shapes and sizes and materials' than 17th century English people of similar social status

Trade networks extended to India and China, with 'ordinary people using peppercorns, at least occasionally if they lived in a city'

Population Levels and Imperial Decline

Roman population was 'as high as it was in most parts of the Mediterranean until the 19th century' - far higher than the previously estimated 20 million

Population decline began 'in Roman Italy almost certainly even by the late 2nd century' and 'stays low' with enormous consequences for tax collection

The empire was held together by 'consumption' and taxation in a feedback loop - 'when we can't see people consuming anymore, we suspect they're no longer paying their taxes'

Monetary crisis saw massive inflation 'like real inflation, right? A thousand percent' yet people continued using bronze coins despite needing 'huge sackloads to buy anything'