Ross Coulthart, investigative journalist and author of In Plain Sight, joins for an extensive discussion of his eight-year investigation into UAP phenomena. Originally approaching the subject with skeptical assumptions about American black programs, Coulthart has evolved into one of the most credible voices documenting government secrecy around non-human intelligence.

The conversation covers Coulthart's transformation from skeptic to believer through witness testimonies, his access to sources within legacy retrieval programs, and specific incidents including the 1978 Kaikoura UFO case documented in Quentin Fogarty's Let's Hope They're Friendly. Coulthart discusses ongoing retrieval operations, the use of microwave weapons against craft, and the ethical implications of potential violence against non-human beings.

The interview explores consciousness, psionic phenomena, and Coulthart's firsthand experience at Esalen Institute where he witnessed successful UAP summoning. Drawing from Arthur Koestler's The Ghost in the Machine, the discussion examines the dual nature of human consciousness and its potential connection to non-human intelligence interactions.

The Kaikoura Incident: Government Cover-Up at American Request

The 1978 Kaikoura UFO incident in New Zealand involved radar confirmation from Wellington Airport air traffic controller John Cordy, who watched objects maneuvering around an Argosy cargo aircraft in real-time coordination with cockpit observations.

Quentin Fogarty's film and book Let's Hope They're Friendly documented the encounter, but the New Zealand government quickly dismissed it as 'squid boat lights' - an explanation declassified files later proved was 'complete nonsense.'

Former New Zealand Prime Minister Robert Muldoon privately told Coulthart that 'the Americans wanted that shut down as quickly as possible,' revealing foreign pressure to suppress the incident.

Air traffic controllers suffered professional reprimands for corroborating the sightings, while pilot Bill Startup remained angry about implications questioning his professional competence.

Inside the Legacy Retrieval Program: Sources and Operations

Coulthart has interviewed over 15 people who operate or have operated inside the legacy retrieval and reverse engineering program, using handwritten letters and tradecraft-level security to establish contact.

Sources describe using high-pulse microwave weapons (HPMs) to down craft after employing psionics to lure them: 'We use psionics to lure them, to bring them, to attract them, to invite them. And for some obscure reason, they keep on coming' - Ross.

When asked about the fate of beings from downed craft, sources give 'squeamish looks' and refuse to answer directly, leading to the disturbing question: 'Have we purposely murdered other beings? Oh, God, that's a horrible thought, isn't it? Have we? I suspect we have' - Ross.

A well-resourced team continues deploying globally to investigate crash sites and anomalous phenomena, possibly operating under Department of Energy auspices based on Peru incident evidence.

The Giant Craft Building: A Hidden Facility

Multiple first-hand sources confirmed the existence of a building shaped like a craft, located outside the continental United States and visible from satellite imagery.

The facility serves an active national security purpose that would create 'serious problems for the men and women that work in that facility' if its location were revealed.

Representative Eric Burleson has indicated willingness to investigate the allegation and has publicly stated he too has heard this is classified knowledge.

Agreements with Non-Human Intelligence

David Grush's DOPSA pre-publication security review included approval to discuss 'agreements,' leading to the question of whether formal agreements exist between America and non-human intelligences.

Coulthart believes agreements have been made between non-humans and humans, potentially involving the CIA rather than formal presidential authorization: 'Imagine how Russia, Britain, China, the rest of the world will feel if they learn that the Americans concluded a deal with a non-human intelligence 60, 70 years ago.'

The ethical implications are staggering: 'Imagine the ethics of that... whether it was done formally by a president or whether it was done by an agency of the United States, like the CIA, on behalf of the human race.'

Esalen Institute: Witnessing Psionic Phenomena

At 4 PM, Jordan Josak predicted seeing 'a blue hexagonal craft' that evening during a demonstration for Skywatcher investors at Esalen Institute.

At 10:30 PM, Josak put on a blindfold and within seconds reported being 'engaged' and 'in a craft,' directing attention to the horizon where two golden-white orbs appeared.

The objects responded to entreaties from witnesses to 'come closer,' approaching within 150-200 meters of the group before departing.

A blue hexagonal orb appeared exactly as predicted, photographed near the hot springs area: 'Almost simultaneously at the moment that I'm saying to Jordan, gee, real shame that we didn't see the blue hexagon, see a blue hexagonal orb, exactly as Jordan had predicted.'

Constitutional Crisis and Trillions in Hidden Spending

Coulthart believes 'trillions, not billions, trillions of dollars have been expended on this program without the knowledge or the consent of the American taxpayer and certainly with no oversight from Congress.'

The program operates through waived unacknowledged special access programs (WUSAPs) that bypass normal congressional oversight, even from the Gang of Eight.

A secret executive order, possibly from the Truman or Eisenhower administration, may provide quasi-legal justification for keeping successive presidents uninformed about the program.

The situation represents 'noble cause corruption' where 'people inside the legacy program decided not to honor the terms of the Constitution and to ignore the obligation to report to Congress.'